Thread: Building Committees and Consultants

From: Larry Pajakowski (Gurnee, IL)

Subject: Building committees and consultants

Hi!

I've had some interest in my war story about the first meeting of our

building committee and the acoustical and system consultants. This is a

little long but hopefully good reading.

The building committee had been meeting for about 6 months with the

architect when we contracted with the audio consultants. We had been

meeting in a school gym and had grown quite fond of a semi-circular seating

arrangement. To put the time line in perspective the meeting was about 18

months before ground breaking.

The consultants flew in from Dallas and New York for one of our meetings.

They spent some time listening and trying to understand the desires of our

particular congregation. Eventually the subject turned to the dimensions

and shape of the worship space. Since the seating was assumed to be

semi-circular most on the committee assumed that the worship space would

have round walls. The acoustical consultant told the committee, much to

its chagrin, that circular was very bad due to echoes. Even worse the

committee heard that money won't fix a bad space and that it is better to

design it correctly up front. The meeting quickly turned into shoot the

messenger of bad news and the 2 consultants were the bad guys.

Later I heard many disparaging comments from the building committee

members. I also heard both from the architect and the consultants that

they thought the meeting went very poorly. I should mention that I thought

it was ok but I knew about the issues with round spaces. It all depends on

ones point of view doesn't it.

I was able to give the consultants a bullet point goals document which is

pretty much what we did get (we find out in 3 months) and the relationship

did improve. Our pastor is a pretty level headed person and did much to

smooth things out. We eventually went so far as padding the pews at the

request of the consultants even though we really liked plain wood.

Lessons learned.

1. 18 months before ground breaking is not too soon to bring in the audio

consultants especially for the design of the space. Even better would be

for the architect to have talked to the consultants before the programing

began. Then the issue of the circular space would not have ever surfaced.

2. The building committee was suffering from "audiophile syndrome". By

this I mean that if you spend more money on a home sound system it will

sound better. The hard news to take was that money, unless you spend large

amounts, won't fix a bad space.

3. The support of the architect and leaders, in this case the pastor, is

very important. These 2 individuals were especially helpful in smoothing

out the bad feelings and improving the relationship.

Hope this was interesting.

Larry Pajakowski

Gurnee, IL

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From: Dale Alexander (Dallas, TX)

Subject: Building Committees & Consultants

Hello Larry,

First, welcome to the list serve.

Second, I am happy to see that somebody in the church appreciates the

heat acoustic consultants take when they have to tell the client the

truth.

You wrote:

<<"Lessons learned.

1. 18 months before ground breaking is not too soon to bring in the

audio consultants especially for the design of the space. Even better

would be for the architect to have talked to the consultants before the

programing began. Then the issue of the circular space would not have

ever surfaced.

2. The building committee was suffering from "audiophile syndrome". By

this I mean that if you spend more money on a home sound system it will

sound better. The hard news to take was that money, unless you spend

large amounts, won't fix a bad space.

3. The support of the architect and leaders, in this case the pastor,

is very important. These 2 individuals were especially helpful in

smoothing out the bad feelings and improving the relationship.">>

Concerning #1: Actually, the time to get the acoustic consultant

involved is before the architect draws one line.

Concerning #2: The truth is sometimes a hard thing to hear.

Concerning #3: You have a very good architect(s) who is appreciated by

the consultant as well.

You also have a very good contractor so see if you can develop a

relationship with him.

Blessings,

Dale Alexander

ACOUSTIC DIMENSIONS

Dallas, TX

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From: Ray A. Rayburn (Boulder, CO)

Subject: Building committees and consultants

Larry -

<<"Even better would be for the architect to have talked to the consultants

before the programing began. Then the issue of the circular space would

not have ever surfaced.">>

Unfortunately many architects think they know enough about acoustics to

design the acoustics of a public assembly space such as a church. Almost

without exception they do not! Any church planning a new building or major

renovation of their existing space should insist their architect hire an

acoustic consultant who specializes in large room acoustics. An acoustic

consultant should be brought in at the earliest programming phase of the

project, and certainly before site selection. This can save the church big

dollars later. Very shortly thereafter the sound system consultant should

get involved. Some firms such as Acoustic Dimensions have both sets of

talents available, others such as Jim Brown have working relationships with

consultants who offer the other part of the needs. Don't assume an acou

stic consultant is an expert on sound systems or vice versa.

Fortunately for you, as Jim Brown said, you have hired an excellent firm.

Ray Rayburn

Audio@Technologist.com

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From: Craig Janssen (Dallas, TX)

Subject: Re: Lessons learned

Hi to all,

Larry Pajakowski mentioned the "war story" of the first meeting between

the acoustical consultants and the church building committee. Given

that I was one of the two consultants present at that meeting and

certainly the one who got shot the most, I thought that I would add my

comments.

First a little background. At Acoustic Dimensions we believe that the

only way to approach room acoustics design and sound and video systems

design is to fully understand and research the needs and personality of

a given client. In Larry's case, this first meeting was intended to

elicit an understanding of the church's goals and priorities. Given

that an alarming number of churches have not even identified their

vision, much less their goals and priorities, these meetings are often

very tense.

The group that we met with was not a "building committee" in the normal

sense of the word. The group was actually assembled by a global call to

any and all church members who might be interested in the meeting. Thus

not only had this group not met before to discuss mutual goals, but

there was not a formal leader to provide direction. When we started

asking what their priorities were (i.e.. preaching, worship, video

projection, drama, etc) there was little consensus. As commonly happens

when ministry priorities are not resolved, the group consensus is to try

to side step this issue by saying that everything is of equal priority

and that the building design must serve all elements.

What people got mad about had nothing to do with acoustics. They got

mad because we told them that they could not have a room and sound

system design which would meet all of their (conflicting) desires

concurrently. We told them that the room design, whatever it turned out

to be, would serve one usage better than another. In short we told them

the truth. This meant that they had to make a decision regarding church

priorities and to determine whether the room design should change to

support these priorities. This was simply too much for some in the

committee to handle. Quote of the day.... "we have got the room to look

the way we want it, you need to make the acoustics work without

changing the room design". Oh boy.

Let me also note that in this case, the architect (HGA from Minneapolis)

was not a problem. We have worked extensively with HGA on performing

arts facilities and some churches. In all cases they have been

responsive and accessible regarding acoustics and sound video systems.

I would work with them anytime.

Regards,

Craig Janssen

Acoustic Dimensions

P.S. If Ray Rayburn and Jim Brown keep on saying nice stuff about us, I

am going to owe them lunch at the next trade show. Thanks for your

support guys!

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From: Larry Pajakowski (Gurnee, IL)

Subject: RE: Lessons learned

Hi,

<<Larry Pajakowski mentioned the "war story" of the first meeting between

the acoustical consultants and the church building committee. Given

that I was one of the two consultants present at that meeting and

certainly the one who got shot the most, I thought that I would add my

comments.>>

Craig's memories are certainly more vivid than mine. He did indeed get

pretty well shot up.

<<What people got mad about had nothing to do with acoustics. They got

mad because we told them that they could not have a room and sound

system design which would meet all of their (conflicting) desires

concurrently.>>

Thank's for correcting me. As I mentioned I did have a different spin on

the meeting than others in the room.

Craig and I talked on the phone at some length after that meeting and we

covered some of the territory that should have been covered at the meeting.

I suppose in effect I was a committee of one.

The dynamics of the group were interesting. Earlier I had spent a fair

amount of time working on a goals sheet for the acoustics with a very rough

priority. It was intended for a non-technical person like those on our

committee. Some of the items were things Acoustic Dimensions would

normally do like "you don't know it's there" and reliability. Others were

specific to our faith community such as "the congreation should be able to

hear itself".

Several times I gave this sheet, which was about one easy reading page, to

various individuals involved with the building and couldn't generate any

interest. I suppose there was more interest in the architecture since

that's what we had been doing for some time than the sound or maybe it was

just apathy.

The system Acoustic Dimensions designed is one which will serve us now and

in the future. Our paster is very big on designing for what someone in the

future may want to do not just not for what we do today as we can't tell

how the space will be used in the future.

Lastly I should mention that budgets are a cruel thing. While we could not

afford the video system or the follow spots (just kidding) we did make

provisions for video projection in the space. Maybe someday we can add

video projection but only AFTER we know what we will do with it. We do learn.

Thank's Craig.

Larry Pajakowski

Gurnee IL.

P.S. I'm glad for the interest this generated. Maybe it will help someone

be more directed when it comes to acoustics.

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From: Jim Brown (Chicago, IL)

Subject: Re: Building committees and consultants

Blake A. Engel wrote:

<<On a more positive note, I know of several architects who DO know how

complicated acoustics can be, they admit this, and they will use a good

acoustical consultant to work with them or at the least look over their

plans.>>

I think I could safely say that any architect who knows ANYTHING about

acoustics will hire a good acousticconsultant for any church or other large

space. And the opposite is also true -- any architect who doesn't hire a

good acoustic consultant for these spaces demonstrates his incompetence by

this action.

Jim Brown

Audio Systems Group, Inc.

Chicago

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From: Jim Brown (Chicago, IL)

Subject: Re: Building committees and consultants

Larry Pajakowski wrote:

<<Lastly I should mention that budgets are a cruel thing. While we could not

afford the video system or the follow spots (just kidding) we did make

provisions for video projection in the space. Maybe someday we can add

video projection but only AFTER we know what we will do with it. We do learn.>>

Yes, but there I suspect there are three very big things

you have going for you.

1. You won't have to spend anything to fix the acoustics.

2. You won't have to buy another sound system for 20-25

years, and you'll spend next to nothing on maintaining it.

3. You'll be able to get at least three times the bang for

your video buck in three years as compared to now (and

maybe a lot more)!

I always recommend to clients that they put off thepurchase of things they

can't afford and buy quality with what they can spend, rather than cutting

corners on the basics. That way, you have something solid to build on.

Jim Brown

Audio Systems Group, Inc.

Chicago

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From: Barry Birdwell (Birdwell Acoustics; Nashville, TN)

Subject: RE: Lessons learned

Craig wrote:

<<The group that we met with was not a "building committee" in the normal

sense of the word. The group was actually assembled by a global call to

any and all church members who might be interested in the meeting.>>

I have to say that my hat is off to you for even agreeing to have a meeting

with the "general populus" of the church and not a dedicated committee so

to speak. Especially to discuss the intracaces that I know are involved.

I have had situations that have too gone to the extremes. I have met with

the committee of a 1200 seat church that consisted of two people. This was

one of the easiest projects I have ever done. I also had a meeting with

the committee of a 300 seat church which consisted of 32 people. This was

at least the hardest project I have ever done.

<<Quote of the day.... "we have got the room to look

the way we want it, you need to make the acoustics work without

changing the room design". Oh boy.>>

This is a classic statement. Spoken with a true sense of total ignorance

(notice I said ignorance not stupidity). I have heard this and it's

thousands of derivatives for many years. Fortunately ignorance can be

cured by a willingness to understand and learn and that is what we as

consultant continually strive to do. Those who are ignorant and know it

and wished to be cured will be blessed in the end.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people will hire and pay good money

for consultants (especially some of the best in the business)

recommendations and then condem them for making them and question their

validity or proceed to tell them how THEY as consultants need to do things

and not the other way around. I mean if they already knew the answer, why

did they pay someone just to hear it again. It's like taking your car to

the shop and when the mechanic tells you "its your carburator, it has to be

replaced" and you telling him "that's impossible, there is no way my

carburator is giving me problems. The carburator is fine leave it alone.

I know it is the windshield wipers and that is what I want you to fix."

If you already know what the problem is and you think that the solution is

that simple, then why did you take it to a mechanic. Why didn't you call a

windshield wiper guy?

Good Luck Craig...

Barry Birdwell

Birdwell Acoustics, Inc.

Nashville, Tennessee

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From: Kevin Potts (Las Vegas, NV)

Subject: Re: Lessons learned

Wow Craig, Ouch. The pastor or the head of the building committe hung you out

to dry!!!

Let me give you people some advice. NEVER NEVER NEVER allow your entire

church body access to a meeting with your architect, contractor, interior

designer, or acoustical consultant.

It is tough enough to get consensous opininon on committees of 5-10 members

let alone potentially 50-500 people who want to get their two cents worth.

Anytime you have a project you need to have a small group take charge. If you

doubt my wisdom, just ask 50 people what color the carpet should be in your

worship center. YOU WILL GET 60 DIFFERENT ANSWERS

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