Do you use earplugs when you mix the worship service?






THREAD: Do you use earplugs when you mix the worship service?


Summary: Even if your church uses a loud sound system, your congregation only has to sit through
that loud sound for a short time each week. However because they also attend soundchecks and
rehearsals, the musicians, vocalists and tech support volunteers who serve in that church are often
exposed to those high sound levels for a much greater length of time than the congregation. Because
of that fact, we believe it is important for sound engineers in particular to wear hearing protection as
often as is practical. Here's what our members thought about this concept.

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From: Ron Hagelganz (Vancouver, WA)
Subject: more on ears...

Does anyone else use earplugs while mixing loud events?

I use ER-15's and really like them

Ron

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From: Jeff Alford (Jacksonville, FL)
Subject: Re: more on ears...

Sound check without them, set your levels, a digital dB meter a must,
then slap um in and mix. Just remember you've got'em and most of the
audience does not. Contrary to popular belief, We as Sound Engineer's
have a responsibility to create environments that are not hazardous to
the general public. Thats All,

Jeff Alford

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From: Rob Parpatt (Chilliwack, BC, Canada)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Does anyone else use earplugs while mixing loud events?">

Can you explain ER-15's a little more?

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From: Ron Hagelganz (Vancouver, WA)
Subject: Re: Re: more on ears... <"Can you explain ER-15's a little more?">

ER-15's are what's called "Musician Ear Plugs". They are actually ear
molds that fit very snug in your ear and attenuate the volume 15dB with
a very accurate frequency response. There is also -25dB plug.

Basically everything sounds perfect, it's just like someone turned the
volume down for you.

They are available from most any Audiologist and cost $125.00 US. They
make a mold of your ear with some goop and in a week or so you get them back.

As a drummer, I also use them when playing to cut down the assualt on my
ears, sometimes I'll just wear one on the band or monitor side, but they work
very well. I also take them to concerts and use them for worry free listening
at some of these loud events.

for FOH, I do sound check w/o them and also the first few songs. Then I put
in the plugs and mix as usual with a dB meter close at hand so I don't start
bringing up the levels without realizing it.

I even wear one in my car when the fam is driving someplace for a long time-
the chatter between my wife next to me and the kids in the back is much less
fatigueing when it's 15dB quieter!

Every sound guy should have a pair of these. I talked my church into buying
them for me to protect my hearing over the years....

Ron

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From: Bob Enlow (Norwalk, OH)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Does anyone else use earplugs while mixing loud events?">

Ron:

Shame on you!!!!! If it's so loud the system operator has to wear
protection, IT'S TOO LOUD!!!! You're going to hurt someone.

Bob Enlow
RESOUND Co.

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From: Jim Brown (Chicago, IL)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Every sound guy should have a pair of these.">

ONLY if everyone in the congregation does too! I believe
it is immoral to mix at levels which will make others lose
the hearing God gave us.

Jim Brown
Audio Systems Group, Inc.

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From: Rob Parpatt (Chilliwack, BC, Canada)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Shame on you!!!!! If it's so loud the system operator has to wear protection, IT'S TOO LOUD!!!! You're going to hurt someone.">

Now, lets not take this out of context. Maybe it's for a youth event
where they want it LOUD & don't have the brains to know that it is
harming them. Remember, kids think they are invincible to everything.

There is an old saying in German that roughly translated ....

Too soon old, too late smart.

Or. Maybe it was for a seniors event where everybody has a 60% loss of
hearing. <grin>

Rob

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: Re: more on ears...

I agree wholeheartedly with what Bob and Jim have said, however I've
mixed in many situations where running the house system at a "reasonable"
SPL wasn't possible because the crowd's enthusiasm overpowered what I
considered a reasonable level. For example, I've mixed many times for
Ron Kenoly, Randy Rothwell, Kent Henry, Alvin Slaughter, Marty Nystrom,
Eugene Greco, Paul Wilbur, and many other Integrity Music artists. Think
about one of their worship sets! The only "calm" ones there might be
Marty and Eugene. Ron really likes his monitors loud, and Randy likes
everything loud. They're all workable folks but they can really get the
crowd going, and as the engineer I have to try to keep pace, to allow the
communication to take place. All that control we have during rehearsals
and soundchecks goes out the window the moment the ushers open the doors
and let them silly Charismaniacs in. ;-)

Also, I learned long ago to include the congregation as part of my mix -
one element that I don't have a fader for. I want my live mix in the
sanctuary to sound like an album mix, and that includes how loud the
corporate worship sound is. If the congregation and/or the worship set
is more calm, like with Marty or Eugene, then I can probably hit a
reasonable level. But when Ron or Randy or Alvin gets the crowd going,
the house system is going to have to come up to match it.

My answer? I ALWAYS carry my ER15's wherever I go, including even when I
simply go to attend church because sometimes things get louder than I
find comfortable. When I mix a worship set, I'll check my mix without my
earplugs early on in the set, and I'll pull them out on occasion to see how
my reverb and other effects settings are working, especially during a
sensitive ballad. But they're in my ears for most of the worship set.
Same thing goes for rehearsals and soundchecks.

We all have a different sensitivity, as well as a different "cultural"
background. What might be the perfect listening level for me could be way
too loud for some, and not nearly loud enough for others. So rather than
project my definition of the perfect SPL on others, I choose (regrettably)
to not attend Christian rock concerts anymore, and my ER15's go along
whenever I walk into a church sanctuary - to mix or to worship.

As a sound engineer in a church, I wouldn't be caught in the building
without good earplugs. Part of my living is based on my hearing. Think
about it - part of the engineer's job is to walk around the stage checking
and listening to irresponsibily loud stage monitors quite frequently, and
the rest of the time we're out at the house mix desk listening to high SPL
for hours at a time. And now that our ears are in threshold shift, we're
going to mix the worship set? We'll probably deliver a mix okay, but it
may not be our best before God. The beauty of the ER plugs is that they
have a fairly flat frequency response. I can wear my earplugs, have the
system going at a healthy level, and still carry on an intelligible
conversation with someone standing next to me, or pickup the intercom
handset and talk with someone. (I have a friend who carries two sets of
ER plugs - ER15's for the usual stuff, and ER25's (I think they were) for
when he finds himself around the real loud stuff.)

I was visiting with an ear doctor one day and his viewpoint was that if
you have to raise your voice to be understood, you're already in a
hearing- damaging environment. Think about that one for a while. Then
go buy some ER plugs! (I wish I'd known about them many years ago, much
earlier in my career. If you're just starting a career or ministry in
church sound, consider yourself blessed to learn about these wonderful
earplugs now. $125 is a meager sum to pay for "insurance", especially
considering the alternative.

By the way, I even carry these on the airplane with me. I put them in
just before takeoff, and take them out just after landing, and yet I can
easily carry on a conversation with someone seated next to me. You'd be
surprised how much better you'll feel after the flight compared with the
listening fatigue of hearing those jet engines for a couple of hours.
Or better yet - they're absolutely a God send if you have to fly a
turboprop commuter!

Blessings!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com

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From: Rob Parpatt (Chilliwack, BC, Canada)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"...fatigue of hearing those jet engines for a couple of hours. Or better yet - they're absolutely a God send if you have to fly a turboprop commuter!">

Obviously you have never had to sit beside a radial engine. They make
Twin Otters & Dash 8's sound real quiet.

After listening to everyones comments, I think those ear plugs are an
excellent investment. Hearing cannot be corrected, so it is too
precious to loose.

Rob

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From: Jens W. Skov (Denmark)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Shame on you!!!!! If it's so loud the system operator has to wear protection, IT'S TOO LOUD!!!! You're going to hurt someone.">

I can only agree!!
I have worked as a sound engineer for 6-7 years (on professional basis).
I have never used ear-plugs, I and would not even consider it, as long
as I'm responsible for the mix. If it's to loud to you....it's to loud!!
--
Jens W. Skov
St.Sc.E.E.
Technical University of Denmark

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From: Rich Marcolini (Ann Arbor, MI)
Subject: Ears

I was the one that initially asked the question about earplugs.

And to me it is not an issue of protection other peoples' hearing,
I already do. I do watch my dB levels very closely and I try follow
the US Dept of Labour Noise Regulations for both the band and patrons.
I care about other people's hearing as much as my own.

I try to keep the volume as low as possible. The issue comes into play
though, for a audio tech who is working in close proximity to many loud
speakers over a longer period of time (sound checks, band practice/warm-up,
and concert).

It was this prolonged exposure to POTENTIALLY high sound levels that made
me interested in Ear Plugs for my health.

The incident that has recently caused me to seek this solution out is
when I was running the mix for a Christian High Shcool Club with 3 bands.
I spend 9 hours total in audio checks and concert mixing). For the first
two bands I had no problem keeping the dB at 90-92 for their performances.

Unfortunatly, in the third band, the drummer was way too loud for the
venue...he alone was driving the dB level to 105 while he was playing.
I could do nothing to get him to play more quietly. 1 hour at 105 is
the limit for one day and I had already had many hours of 90+ dB.
Needless to say, I suffered from audio fatigue for the next two days in
which I kept ever sound around me to a whisper. I spoke with him after
his performance and told him that he really needed to play a LOT quiter....
as for me I would like to have some good protection to help me from being
over-exposed as the sound tech is the one person there the longest in
front of high SPL.

I appreciate everyone's concern about people's hearing and protecting
what the Lord has given us and I don't see the decision to use ear plugs
as an immoral decision as long as a close eye is kept on a SPL meter.
Thanks everyone for your input.

Love in Christ,
Rich

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: Fwd: more on ears... <"I have worked as a sound engineer for 6-7 years (on professional basis).I have never used ear-plugs, I and would not even consider it, as long as I'm responsible for the mix. If it's to loud to you....it's to loud!!">


Gentlemen,

I guess we can all choose for ourselves which hills to die on. For me,
I've been mixing professionally for over 20 years, and played in rock and
roll bands for twelve years before that. And what I shared with y'all on
this subject is worth re-considering. I don't have the liberty of stopping
a Ron Kenoly worship night and telling the crowd to calm down so I can run
the system at a reasonable level. I do have control over the level in a
recording studio, and if the producer wants to run the monitors at 110 dB,
I'll politely leave the room until he's come to his senses. I try to
exercise as much responsibility as I can mixing for a live worship set, but
I'm tied to that console until the end of the worship night. Like I said,
we can all choose our battles - I choose not to go to Christian rock concerts
anymore. And I've intentionally shifted my career out from behind the
console and over to a drafting table and computer. I too was tired of being
exposed to those levels with nowhere to hide, even with earplugs on, and
that was one of several reasons why I chose to shift my career in audio to
system design and teaching churches how to better run their sound systems.

I'm on your side, so don't get mad at me. And please don't discount the
different sensitivities and the cultural differences - it's a very real
thing. I know a music pastor in North Carolina who "demands" that the
worship services run 105 dBA. I'm sure he's not the only one. I've
measured 114 dB(C scale) in the middle of an auditorium during a "standard"
Sunday morning worship service at a large church in Columbus, Ohio.
It's not a pleasant experience for me, even with earplugs in, but the
majority of folks in that church expect it, and some prefer it. And trying
to convince them otherwise will be met with naive laughter.

I find it interesting though that some of y'all met my (and others')
suggestion of wearing earplugs to mix with a similar disdain. I used to
think the same way, but I learned a valuable lesson the first time I
tried my earplugs. You'll be pleasantly surprised the day you try the
ER plugs. If you make your living from your gift of hearing, don't take
these comments lightly.


Blessings in Christ!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Ears <"It was this prolonged exposure to POTENTIALLY high sound levels that made me interested in Ear Plugs for my health.">

Thanks for re-stating this thought. That was very much part of my point
as well. Even if we run the system fairly hot, the congregation will
be exposed to those levels for only a fraction of the time that we as
sound engineers will be.

But do remember, time of exposure is important but it's not the only
issue. Any one of us is subject to an instantaneous, total hearing loss
if we're exposed to a sound impact of sufficient level. If I remember the
statistic correctly, roughly 2 percent of the population could (will) lose
their hearing totally if they are exposed to that kind of sound. (Like a
gun shot, or a snare drum, et al.) It doesn't even really matter what
frequency it is, although we're most sensitive at around 3 kHz.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. I hate to sound like I'm preaching,
but I've taught on this subject for many years in my workshops. It's
worth talking about.

Blessings!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com

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From: Ron Hagelganz (Vancouver, WA)
Subject: Re: Re: more on ears... <"Shame on you!!!!! If it's so loud the system operator has to wear protection, IT'S TOO LOUD!!!! You're going to hurt someone.">

and: <"ONLY if everyone in the congregation does too! I believe it is immoral to mix at levels which will make others lose the hearing God gave us">


WOW! I had no idea so many folks would freak out over my post!

If you really read it, you would have seen that I said "at loud events".
That doesn't imply that I run worship at some kind of "immoral" level.
(My! how quick we can be to pass judgement huh? *smile*)

The fact is that those of us who do sound for a living are exposed to
whatever levels we have to run for longer duration, and more frequently
than "the average bear".

I am extremely careful about the levels I expose "my" audiences too- but
the truth is, ANY exposure takes it's toll on the operator over time.
I'm 42 and have been mixing for 20 years, and playing drums for a lot longer
than that and my hearing is much more sensitive than it used to be. I have
it checked regularly and all is well, but loud volumes (from any source)
are much more fatiguing to my ears than they used to be. Perhaps if I had
been using earplugs this whole time it would not be an issue of concern
for me and my future.

Our ears are our livelyhood folks (not to mention for many of us the
tools of our calling), - and just as a football player wears all those
pads to protect his body over time- so should we protect ourselves as
responsible sound operators. And I'm convinced that is a two part equasion:

1) Mix at levels that are appropriate for the venue and artist, but ALWAYS
SAFE for the audience. (use a meter-never guess)

2) Protect your ears from prolonged/repeated exposure (to anything- not just
music), so you can come back and mix tomorrow.

Ron

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From: Jim Brown (Chicago, IL)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"Shame on you!!!!! If it's so loud the system operator has to wear protection, IT'S TOO LOUD!!!! You're going to hurt someone."> <"Now, lets not take this out of context. Maybe it's for a youth event where they want it LOUD & don't have the brains to know that it is harming them. Remember, kids think they are invincible to everything.">


All the more reason not to hurt them. As adults and
Christians, we have that responsibility.

Jim Brown
Audio Systems Group, Inc.

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From: Bob Enlow (Norwalk, OH)
Subject: Re: Fwd: more on ears... <"If you make your living from your gift of hearing, don't take these comments lightly.">

Curt:

You raise some excellent points when you bring up the cultural differences,
but I still have a problem knowingly damaging the hearing of all those
folks. I guess that is where I just find another way to use the talents the
Lord has given me.

I must look into the ER-15's. $125 is a far cry from $5000 for a set of
good hearing aids!

Thanks for your usual excellent comments!

Bob Enlow
RESOUND Co.

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From: Jim Brown (Chicago, IL)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"I know a music pastor in North Carolina who "demands" that the worship services run 105 dBA. I'm sure he's not the only one. I've measured 114 dB(C scale) in the middle of an auditorium during a "standard" Sunday morning worship service at a large church in Columbus, Ohio.">

I'm going to express what may be a very unpopular stance here, but I'm
going to stick by it. It is a well known scientific fact that exposure
to excessive sound levels causes permanent hearing loss, and it is not
a matter of debate whether that is true.

If it is sin, it is a sin, no matter how many folks are doing it, or
whether it is endorsed by or practiced by a misguided minister of the
Gospel. God gave us the intelligence to study and learn how our bodies,
senses, and brains work, and we have the responsibility as His servants
not to abuse them or to abuse others. We have the responsibility to
speak the truth, even if it is unpopular. And we have the responsibility
to refuse to participate in a sinful practice.

Jim Brown
Audio Systems Group, Inc.

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From: Bob Enlow (Norwalk, OH)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"WOW! I had no idea so many folks would freak out over my post!

1) Mix at levels that are appropriate for the venue and artist, but ALWAYS
SAFE for the audience. (use a meter-never guess)

2) Protect your ears from prolonged/repeated exposure (to anything- not just
music), so you can come back and mix tomorrow.">

Ron:

I apologize if I came across as judgemental. I didn't intend that to be
"flame mail!" And I wholeheartedly agree with your closing statements.
Your comments in this most recent post explain things a lot better than I
interpreted from the first one!

I'm really sensitive to this subject. I'm 61, and must wear hearing aids to
try in a small way to compensate for the loss I incurred years ago operating
a fire control radar under the 5"38 cal. and 3"50 cal. naval rifles on my
destroyer. Following that, I did a LOT of shooting before I was aware of
hearing protectors. Now...I use both EAR plugs and muffs.

Thanks,

Bob Enlow
RESOUND Co.

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"...but I still have a problem knowingly damaging the hearing of all those folks.">

Bob,

I totally agree. You and others who know me may remember that I've been
preaching against loud worship services for over ten years. You don't
have to convince me on any of the issues that have been raised here.
So please hear my heart when I say that somewhere in there is also a
reality we have to contend with. For several years I made my living
engineering albums in the studio and mixing live worship services and
worship "concerts" or "worship nights". In the studio, if the producer
tells you to turn it up, you turn it up. Whenever it would get
unreasonably loud, I'd find a way to excuse myself for a while.

A typical church worship service can be quite a bit different than a praise
and worship "concert" if you will. Often a church worship service affords the
engineer more control. In fact a worship service can even afford the audience
more control than they can expect in a praise and worship "concert". For
example, at the church I used to work at the congregation had an easy system
to communicate their likes or dislikes about the worship service - they'd
simply jot them down on the bulletin tab and put it in the offering bucket.
The pastor wanted the service loud, but we'd always take note of the comments
from the congregation. They'd be faithful to remind us when we let things get
out of hand. But for a worship night with a well-known artist we rarely see
that system of communication available (unless it's someone walking over to
the sound booth and yelling at the engineer to turn it down :-< ). Not only
is it more of a "concert" setting where many people expect it to be loud, but
it's over in just a couple of hours.

Not to belabor the point, but the cultural and age issues are a reality that
we each have to contend with. If you don't believe me, try an experiment:
book a loud (you can define "loud") worship night celebration with someone
like Randy Rothwell into a traditional, mainline denomination, typically quiet
church (like a high mass Catholic or legit Episcopal worship service) with a
generally older congregation. My guess is that the band will outnumber the
congregation before the night is over.

Ron made a really good point. The ultimate responsibility of exposure to loud
sound - for adults who can make a choice - is shared between the FOH engineer,
the worship leader (especially if they have reached the "recording artist",
packed-house status), and every individual in attendance.

What frustrates me the most is to see parents bring their babies and young
children to church (into the worship service) where the system is reaching
unreasonable levels. I remember one single Mom who every week would bring her
baby into the service and sit in the front row. I questioned it then, but
never took the initiative to explain the realities to her. Now that I've
learned a great deal more about this stuff, and now that we have toddlers of
our own, I regret never having suggested to her to put her baby in the nursery
simply to protect its ears. We have a choice to attend that worship service.
That baby did not.

Blessings!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com

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From: Mark B Jenkins (Union City, TN)
Subject: Re: more on ears...

Curt,

I can ditto everything you said - including airplane experiences.
However, I have yet to invest in the expensive version. I use 30db
reduction industrial earplugs just like I use on my "real" job.

Especially when I am mixing monitors on stage. Ears - like most physical
things - are a function of volume and time. I take the plugs out when I
need to, and leave them in as much as possible.

I will definitely look into the hi-tech ear solution

Thanks for your comments

Mark B. Jenkins

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From: Andy Sorentino (Cincinnati, OH)
Subject: Re: more on ears...

Ok, I think I missed it from Curt's original response. Where does one
purchase these ER-15 ear plugs.

I have been in several bands over a 20+ year period (I was always told I
was never loud enough, but the other guitar player was always told he was
too loud...SO, I never cranked it up.) My hearing is still pretty darn
good. AND I'd like to keep it that way. We are planning on starting a
monthly Wednesday Worship Night focusing on mostly contemporary music
with a full band and it will probably be a bit louder than the normal
Sunday service.

I also do a LOT of driving in my day gig and the road noise in this
current vehicle is atrocious.

SO! DO I check with a local ENT doc or a hearing aid place or who?

If you mentioned it previously, sorry I missed it. Refresh my memory if
you did, PLEASE!

Thanks,
Andy

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From: Randy Wells (Phoenix, AZ)
Subject: Re: more on ears... <"I guess we can all choose for ourselves which hills to die on. For me,I've been mixing professionally for over 20 years, and played in rock and roll bands for twelve years before that.">


Hi all! Just a couple thoughts on this subject.

Eight years in military service--five of which were spent around M-1
tanks (which can take your hearing out really quick if you let it) have
already caused some partial hearing loss on my part. I certainly don't
want to do anything to risk anymore loss.

These earplugs sound pretty good to me.

And it only makes perfectly good sense to protect your ears when they affect
your ability to do your job. I for one don't want to end up the old guy in
the congregation with the squealing hearing aids!!

Side note--Curt, when you go to an ear doctor to get these things what are you
asking for--specifically for the ER15's or for something else?

Randy Wells
Sound & Lighting Ministry

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From: Barry Birdwell (Nashville, TN)
Subject: Re: Fwd: more on ears... <"It is a well known scientific fact that exposure to excessive sound levels causes permanent hearing loss, and it is not a matter of debate whether that is true. And we have the responsibility to refuse to participate in a sinful practice.">


Not only that but purposely inflicting the types of levels that I hear
being stated will surely be grounds for litigation some day. Especially
where children are involved. And I guarantee that all a lawyer has to do
is find and expert willing to testify that loud, sustained levels of sound
will definitely cause hearing damage and you and your church are out some
major dollars.

And some think that you may have paid too much for the SOUND system. You
aint seen nothin yet...

Barry Birdwell
Birdwell Acoustics, Inc.
Nashville, Tennessee

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From: Russel O'Toole (Romeoville, IL)
Subject: Re: Fwd: more on ears...

Jim:

I think I will frame your comments!

We have a Baptist pastor in one of the northern surburbs with a very
large congregation who insists on levels so high it will "hurt their
ears," (his quote not mine).

He is also a Pulpit Pounder. The last time my techs were at the church,
they tell me he has beat out a spot in the surface of his new pulpit
where his "class ring" strikes the surface!

You can tell that is is very energetic (grin).

Russel L. O'Toole
AUDIOE ELECTRONICS, Inc.
Romeoville, Illinois

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From: Russell O'Toole (Romeoville, IL)
Subject: ER15/25's

Curt:

What or where is a source for the ER15/25's that have been discussed on
the listserve recently?

Russel L. O'Toole
AUDIO ELECTRONICS, Inc.
Romeoville, Illinois

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From: Larry Pajakowski (Gurnee, IL)
Subject: Re: Where to find the ER plugs

You won't buy directly from Etymotic Research as all they make are the tiny
buttons. I found a local audiologists group (really didn't need a doctor)
who sold Westone (www.earmold.com) hearing protectors. Westone makes the
custom mold with the ER15 or ER25 insert in the end. That same group also
handled some of the custom molded in ear monitors on the market.

Be sure the fit is good as I found a sloppy fit does not attenuate the
lower frequencies well. Even though the OSHA standard use "A" weighting
your ear drum is rattled according to SPL not how we perceive it. My car
runs at about 72db "A" weighted at highway speeds and 90db "C" weighted!
Can you guess what I think of the OSHA spec?

Most quality audiologists have a policy of making more than one ear mold,
if needed, until the fit is right. I pick up my 3rd in a week for one ear.
Verify they have such a policy.

Larry Pajakowski
Gurnee IL

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: Re: ER15/25's <"What or where is a source for the ER15/25's that have been discussed on the listserve recently?">

Russell,

I just received this info from my friend George. He's a great
Christian saxophone player, and we worked together for several years
with Worship International. Anyway, before going fulltime into the
music ministry, he sold hearing aids for many years. He made the molds for
both Jeanna and I, and had the ER attenuator buttons fitted for us by
Microsonic. Here's their info:

*******************************
The earmold company is Microsonic
1421 Merchant St.
Ambridge, PA 15003
800-523-7672

WEBSITE:
http:// www.earmolds.com^/sound
*******************************

I'll echo what Larry said earlier today - anyone who wants to buy a custom
pair of great quality, usable earplugs should simply go to a good ear
doctor who does.

Blessings!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com

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From: Barry Morris (Sault Ste. Marie, ON, Canada)
Subject: ears

Hello,

I'm catching up on some old mail and reading with interest the discussion/
bashing/shaming going on about high volume levels. Have any of you guys ever
measured some of the stuff you take for granted? If people enjoy something
they don't notice how loud it is.

How about the following numbers:

Salvation Army Brass band 105 dB to congregation, 110 to 120 on stage.

Organ, small, at my church 105 db in the front row.

Bagpipes 105 db at about 6 ft.

Congregational singing 90 db in crowd.

You want to protect a toddler's ears by putting him in the nursery?? If you
want to check a 1 year old at full cry, have a meter better than mine. It
only reads up to 126 db!! Imagine that happening on your shoulder.

Barry Morris
Morris Sound

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From: Curt Taipale (Taipale Media Systems, Inc.)
Subject: DUI

<"Have any of you guys ever measured some of the stuff you take for granted?
If people enjoy something they don't notice how loud it is.">

That's certainly a valid point. Think about playing in the jazz stage band in
high school or college! I played lead alto sax, and had to sit in front of
both the bones and the trumpets. The truth is that we can enjoy something
that's still too loud for our health, especially with the high quality,
distortion-free systems that can be built these days.

There's been some confusion that has crept up in this thread, and maybe it
would help to stop and pick it apart for a moment. I think we're dealing with
two individual yet interlaced issues here. One is purely a judgment call up
to a point, where individuals in the audience determine on their own what is
too loud based on their age, their cultural background and their learned likes
and dislikes. The other is the brutal honest fact that being exposed to sound
that is too loud WILL damage one's hearing. The phrase "it's too loud" could
genuinely apply to either scenario, and yet we could be talking about two
different issues. In part, it's the dividing line that has become our
battleground here, and unfortunately it's a moving target.

We often find ourselves riding that line trying to do our part of being
responsible engineers while at the same time pleasing our pastors, music
pastors, or for at least some of us those who sign our checks. For that
reason I don't believe that this conversation has been a trivial shouting
match but rather a healthy exchange of both fact and opinion. My prayer is
that it has served as a good wakeup call for those who weren't paying
attention. <"You want to protect a toddler's ears by putting him in the nursery?? If you want to check a 1 year old at full cry, have a meter better than mine. It only reads up to 126 dB!! Imagine that happening on your shoulder.">

Yes, I do! It's still better than being exposed to a worship set, especially
if the infant is on the floor and in the pressure zone up front and the
speaker stacks are on the edges of the stage. A regular part of Don &
Carolyn's seminars was for Don to yell into his Bruel & Kjaer SPL meter to
illustrate that the human voice was capable of approaching 150 dB SPL at very
close range. You're talking to a man and wife who have twins just approaching
four years old. Believe us when we say that our memory of their loud cries
when they were just babies is still indelibly scored into our memory and
eardrums. Now that they're a little older they don't cry as often, but they
can cry louder than they used to.

Jeanna just mentioned two questionable situations she saw just this week at
the church we've joined here in the Atlanta area. Orchestra and choir
rehearsals are on Wednesday evenings. The drummer in the orchestra
(electronic kit) has her two year old playing on the floor next to her during
the two hour rehearsal. The kit may not be that loud, but they're right in
the middle of all the brass, percussion and other instruments. Probably less
of an issue, but in the choir is a Mom with a six month old. Granted, she's
on the side of the choir, but in that small choir rehearsal room 100+ voices
can get pretty loud.

Two factors that contribute to hearing loss are (1) time of exposure to a
constant sound level (especially sound with a high transient content), AND/OR
(2) exposure to a sudden onset of a sufficiently loud sound even for a very
brief moment.

There are a number of factories with a constantly noisy work environment.
That is one reason why, in the US at least, OSHA has published limits on what
they consider legally permissable levels over time. Those peaks of 126 dB
from an infant can be painful and damaging. So can setting a system into
feedback, especially as heard on stage over the monitors. (And as we tried to
drive home the point in another thread, it's extremely dangerous when using
in-ear monitors.) But those peaks are not a constant 126 dB SPL over a long
period of time. And a worship service, even if it hits 100 dB SPL (C scale)
at a couple of exciting moments during the service, probably averages more in
the 92 dB SPL range. That's still plenty loud enough, but according to OSHA
not an issue for the congregation. On the other hand, for the tech crews who
are exposed to those levels over a much longer period of time, it does become
an issue.

The other issue to consider is the envelope of the sound. Someone who runs
the machines all day long in an offset print shop can expect to lose their
hearing unless they take protective, preventative measures. The primary cause
of the damage is the continual impact sound. The guys at Crown who ran the
machines to punch out the chassis frames and other parts for the Crown amps
were required to wear earplugs because the frequent sound of the impact when
metal hit metal was at such a high SPL. Drummers who slam their snare drum
and hit the cymbals really hard are in the same boat. It's the transient peak
of that impact that gets to you.

A couple of people raised a purist' eyebrow and said they'd never ever
consider wearing a pair of earplugs while mixing live sound. Well, I was one
of those naysayers once as well. All I can say is that until you've tried it,
you don't really know if it would work or not. We're not talking about those
cheap foam earplugs - that'd be like trying to mix with a pair of David Clark
ear protector muffs on. The ER plugs are reasonably flat, and very effective.
Works for me.

Some of us mix in churches who'd never even raise this argument because
they'll never get above 80 dB. Others serve as a volunteer in churches who
regularly come up to that line of appropriate vs. irresponsible levels. For
those of us who have mixed live sound for a living, we also know the reality
of pleasing the folks who sign the paycheck.

All I'm trying to say is that, while each of us has a real sense of
responsibility in regard to how loud we should let things get, it's not always
that easy in the heat of battle. Again, remember, I'm one guy who's been
preaching against loud worship services for over ten years. You don't have to
convince me of that truth. I've also made my living in audio for twenty
years, and this issue is not always black and white. As a patron, I can walk
out of a Michael W. Smith concert because it's too loud. I've done it. As
the FOH engineer, I can't leave the desk of a Ron Kenoly worship night if
keeping up with the congregation's response means pushing things a little
hotter than I'd prefer. And for what it's worth, I'm talking on the order of
98 dB to 105 dB (C scale), not 114 dB like I've measured in a church worship
service. For me, 105 dB SPL (C scale) is screaming loud. For others, it's
just gettin' toasty. And for others, they'd have left the building headed for
their attorney long before the band finished the soundcheck.

By the way, the fact does remain that when SPL goes beyond a certain point,
ear damage will result. Your comment reminds me of something that Don &
Carolyn Davis used to point out in their workshops. In studies they had read
it was discovered that people who were DUI (which for our discussion is
"dancing under the influence" of drugs or alcohol) during their exposure to
loud sounds were more likely to sustain damage to their hearing than those who
were not under the influence of some drug or alcohol.

You may know from experience that if you're exposed to a very loud sound that
your hearing will automatically protect itself, kind of like a built-in
limiter. During this study it was determined that the reason people who were
under the influence were more likely to sustain damage to their hearing was
because they were so relaxed that their ear's protection system could not kick
in, or was too slow to react.

The issue of whether or not to wear earplugs was offered up as a way to
protect ourselves against something we may not have control over in every
situation. If you are in a controlled environment all the time then great,
forget about them. If not, I'd recommend that you invest in them as soon as
you can. You won't regret it.

Blessings in Christ!

Curt
curt@churchsoundcheck.com


P.S. From the comments in this thread as well as many others, it sounds like
most of us in this group approach our work as doing our best for God, that at
the FOH console we're mixing to please Him first. So the issue of being a
responsible engineer is in all of our hearts and on our minds. With that in
mind, I was a little surprised and disappointed to see some of the stone
throwing and name calling that this thread brought out. C'mon guys, is that
how Jesus would have responded? Remember our ground rules: if it doesn't
edify, if it doesn't honor God, if it doesn't lift others up, then don't say
it to this group.

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