Thread: Our Church Needs Some New Speakers

Hi all,

We're getting ready to put in new speakers and power amps in our sanctuary.

Our sanctuary is 100' wide by 50' deep. We're going to fly a center cluster of

4 speakers. The outside 2 cover the outside seating sections (which are bigger

than the center sections) and the two front speakers will cover the center

sections. They are amplified in pairs - center and outside. We will put a sub

on the floor concealed on each side of the stage. We need 45 degrees vertical

or so to cover the floor. Building reflectance is average, and probably some

pattern control for mid/lows would be desirable.

I'd like to use EAW's stuff, and was wondering if anyone could recommend what

series of EAW cabs they might use in our scenario? Also what brand amps do you

like? (I've been looking at QSC's...)

Thanks much!

Randy Starkey (Pevely, MO)

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Hi Randy,

The power amplifiers that I prefer are Crowm MA or CT series. I have to admit

that I am a little biased. I like the PIP IQ modules. The new PIP-DSP has delay,

parametric EQ, Band pass filters, High cut and low cut filters. This is a lot

of capability for the money.

For speakers I like Community. I find that I am working with EV a lot because

they are next door! If I can be of ny help let me know.

Don Eger (Goshen, IN)

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Don,

Thanks for the thoughts on Crown. I have a few other people here who like them.

I'll take a look see as some of what you described I wasn't aware they had.

I've heard good things about Community speakers. Have you had any experience

with EAW? They seem to have execelent intelligibility, and good pattern control.

Randy Starkey (Pevely, MO)

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Be careful about putting speakers beside one another without splaying them.

Do not use more speakers than you need or you will get a lot of comb filtering.

Also, do not try to fix a bad room with electronics. Hire an acoustic engineer

if you are having problems with reflections.

Tom Pullin (Garland, TX)

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Randy,

It almost sounds like your putting the horse before the cart so to speak.

The description of your array would indicate that you have already researched

the types of devices required and have come upon the solution. I guess I am

wondering how you have configured your array in the manner you have stated

above without some idea of the component (model #'s, arrayability, frequency

response characteristics, etc.) to be used.

It is much easier to start with a known and work to an unknown that starting

with an unknown and working to a known. You obviously have some idea of the

desired coverage patterns involved. If you are dead set on EAW components,

I would determine first what area of budget you have considered, as EAW can

go from soup to nuts here, and try to match the desired coverage patterns to

an acceptable EAW solution. In the end you may only end up with needing only

two of a certain type of EAW unit or maybe 6 of another. There are also very

many other factors involved as coverage patterns change with frequency (the

lower the frequency the wider or more "omnidirectional" the coverage pattern

becomes), how the loudspeakers will react with and to one another as someone

has already stated, and several other items. I guess what I am saying is that

it is still not totally as easy as only matching nominal coverage patterns

printed on the loudspeaker cut sheet.

I would certainly recommend seeking some other professional opinions before simply

saying "we are putting up 4 speakers, we just have'nt figured out which 4 yet"

There are probably competent consultants in your area that would be available

to work with you on this. I would certainly recommend contacting someone like

this as it may certainly save you some headaches (and maybe some equipment cost)

down the road.

If you are at the level of EAW, I would most certainly echo the recommendation

of Crown and would add Crest, or even Electrovoice or Altec. I have specified

all of the major players, (Crown, QSC, Crest, EV, Altec, Yamaha) and have been

happy with all of these. Stay at this level though!

Barry Birdwell (Nashville, TN)

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Tom,

I would agree with that. We're running a cluster of 4 now with decent results,

but the speakers are 18 years old with at least one or two cracked cones...

Randy Starkey (Pevely, MO)

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Barry,

Thanks for the reply. I know EAW makes some boxes that are more pattern controlled

at the MID/LF than others. I also know I can't cover our seating with 2 speakers.

The depth difference horizontally from one side of the pattern to the other is too

much. But I agree with you, and as Curt has pointed out, I'm probably asking the

wrong questions here. Too much into design, and you can't design with e-mail, and

I don't want to cross the business line. Sorry.

Randy Starkey (VPevely, MO)

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Hi Randy,

I have not worked with EAW. I do beleive that design is the most important part

of puting in a speaker system. Some speakers will behave well and as advertized

so care in the application is the important part.

Don Eger (Goshen, IN)

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Randy,

In considering the do-it-yourself approach (even if you hired a consultant to

help you with design) I would relay a couple of thoughts:

1) Be very careful when hanging large, heavy objects over small, soft heads.

This is a very comprehensive undertaking in which every possibility for failure

of some type (loudspeaker cabinet, hanging apparatus, even the building structure

itself) HAS to be considered and planned for. It only takes one of these to fail

to "bring the house down" so to speak. It is an issue of liability that most

churches, once they know what the backlash of such an accident can be in terms

of lawsuit settlements alone much less the emotional aspect, sometimes don't wish

to cross into.

For this reason you may want to consider hiring a contracting type company who is

insured and bonded to provide any installation of these types of loudspeaker

systems. They not only have the insurance to protect the church, they should also

have the necessary insurance to protect their own personel. Regardless of anyone's

insurance rating and track record for successful installations, ANY hanging

assemblies should be reviewed and approved by a licensed structural engineer.

The specifications I write are insistent upon this.

I used to tell the installation folks when I was in the contracting business:

"Take great care in the installation of thy loudspeakers for when large objects

of great weight falleth from the sky, they shall cause the believers in the faith

to quickly become believers more so in the Law, and this is not a good thing"

2) It is typically very difficult to find someone, especially someone who has

given his time to the church to come down on a Saturday and missed the SEC

championship football game, to hang a bunch of loudspeakers that the church

has bought and needs some help getting them hung, so on and so on to take the

responsibility for the outcome if it is not what the church was expecting.

I have seen this situation many times and it gets worse before it gets better

(hard feelings, etc.). I guarantee that if there is a problem that same person

won't be within 50 miles of the church when it has to be "re-done" for fear of

being "blamed" or associated with another bad outcome again.

This would be another reason to look to engage a contracting entity if for

nothing else a point of responsibility for meeting a certain "performance"

requirement. You will still have to be careful as most all contractors will

only accept full responsibility for both performance and installation if they

have had a hand in the design and have been allowed to select the devices that

they are comfortable will do the job rather than you handing them 4 loudspeakers

and saying "here you go, and we want them to look great and sound great when

your through". You can look for a few disclaimers at this point.

Just a few thoughts...

Barry Birdwell (Nashville, TN)

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Don,

Thanks for the reply. This is really a design issue I guess, even though I think

I know basically what I need, so perhaps I should have it looked at further, and

I don't want to take advantage of consultants here. I have had my worship leader

out singing into various boxes, and also some various worship CD's, and the

intelligibility of the EAW boxes just seemed so much better than the JBL's and

the EV's I demoed. Community I've never heard. That's why I sort of asked the

original question of an EAW series. From their web page it's easy to look at specs,

but that's not real life. Even with the best design, if a speaker doesn't produce

then the design sort of becomes irrelevant. As someone already said, specs aren't

everything. I guess I'm probably too paranoid about letting someone else choose

the speakers <G>.

Is there any particular reason you haven't used EAW? As a general consulting question,

assuming one deals with just the main loudspeakers and amps, can that be analyzed

and a choice made in a day?

I guess I should really ask several of the consultants here to respond to the above

via private e-mail, or just drop me your phone number and I will call you, because

if we should decide to use a consultant for this job, I'll have to have several

proposals.

Thanks much!

Randy Starkey (Pevely, MO)

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Barry,

I appreciate your thoughts. There are definitely very important. We are a bit

unique in that we have many engineering folks here. I am a graduate engineer

myself, and have worked in electrical, structural and mechanical design. We flew

the 4 speakers up there now (Peavey SP-2's) about 12 years ago ourselves. We

did plenty of hang points, and the building structure is steel. We've also

designed and fabricated our own bracket (that drops 8') for our Barco 800 video

projector. We design and maintain our own 10 station computer network, etc...

So we're not the normal church in that regard. But nevertheless your comments

good wisdom. Thanks. We'll use all the right hardware, and believe me, the

our building will fall down before the speakers will when we're done.

Randy Starkey (Pevely, MO)

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